_17:13
HI there - remember me? I’m that guy who every once in awhile comes online and updates this website. I understand it’s been awhile since I’ve been around this part of the web but traveling all over the country and staying at people’s house that only have 56k will do that to ya :-)
The trip has been going great and I’ve taken so many pictures I’m trying to figure out when I’ll be able to put them all together for you on my site?
The place we’re staying is on De Jager North Dairy farm and I’m learning a ton about being a country man. These past couple of days I’ve been introduced to a wide varitey of things such as shooting various flying animals all the way to how a dairy farm runs.
The place we’re staying at has 2,900 cows that are milked 2 times a day. De Jager owes 15,000 acres of land and is one of the biggest dairy farmers in the state of California (and I think the country).
It’s also been alot of getting to know Kathy’s brother, ROGER and his family. (someone yelling for me in the background) - Everyone is telling me I have to drive to town and grab some Pizza so if I don’t get odda here they’ll probably skin my hyde.
posted on December 29, 2001 | 8:25 PM EST
Add to the discussion.
Milk is horrible for you.
Corporate-owned factories where cows are warehoused in huge sheds and treated like milk machines have replaced most small family farms. With genetic manipulation and intensive production technologies, it is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of milk a dayó 10 times more than they would produce in nature. To keep milk production as high as possible, farmers artificially inseminate cows every year. Growth hormones and unnatural milking schedules cause dairy cows’ udders to become painful and so heavy that they sometimes drag on the ground, resulting in frequent infections and overuse of antibiotics. Cows — like all mammals — make milk to feed their own babies — not humans.
Male calves, the “byproducts” of the dairy industry, endure 14 to17 weeks of torment in veal crates so small that they can’t even turn around. Female calves often replace their old, worn-out mothers, or are slaughtered soon after birth for the rennet in their stomachs (an ingredient of most commercial cheeses). They are often kept in tiny crates or tethered in stalls for the first few months of their lives, only to grow up to become “milk machines” like their mothers.
Cow’s milk is an inefficient food source. Cows, like humans, expend the majority of their food intake simply leading their lives. It takes a great deal of grain and other foodstuffs cycled through cows to produce a small amount of milk. And not only is milk a waste of energy and water, the production of milk is also a disastrous source of water pollution. A dairy cow produces 120 pounds of waste every day — equal to that of two dozen people, but with no toilets, sewers, or treatment plants.
In Lancaster County, Pa., manure from dairy cows is destroying the Chesapeake Bay, and in California, which produces one-fifth of the country’s total supply of milk, the manure from dairy farms has poisoned vast expanses of underground water, rivers, and streams. In the Central Valley of California, the cows produce as much excrement as a city of 21 million people, and even a smallish farm of 200 cows will produce as much nitrogen as in the sewage from a community of 5,000 to 10,000 people, according to a U.S. Senate report on animal waste.
Dairy products are a health hazard. They contain no fiber or complex carbohydrates and are laden with saturated fat and cholesterol. They are contaminated with cow’s blood and pus and are frequently contaminated with pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics. Dairy products are linked to allergies, constipation, obesity, heart disease, cancer, and other diseases.
The late Dr. Benjamin Spock, America’s leading authority on child care, spoke out against feeding cow’s milk to children, saying it can cause anemia, allergies, and insulin-dependent diabetes and in the long term, will set kids up for obesity and heart disease, America’s number one cause of death.
And dairy products may actually cause osteoporosis, not prevent it, since their high-protein content leaches calcium from the body. Population studies, backed up by a groundbreaking Harvard study of more than 75,000 nurses, suggest that drinking milk can actually cause osteoporosis
want to know more? www.milksucks.com
Ok “Reality” … thats fine and great and everything - but you have no idea what kind of farm these cows are in. You didn’t see the farm yourself and you’re walking on somebody’s toes.
I agree with you that cows shouldnt’ be warehoused - these cows are not. you bring up a good point for some dairy farms - but not this one - so be careful.
I bet you didn’t even consider the time and effort these poeple put into making sure they have the best for you to drink whena dn if you drink it.
I bet you didn’t know that for the past few months the bacteria count has been 0 in this farm - thats not something you can very often say about a dairy farm.
maybe you should research a little more before you say that this is inhumane or wrong.
Some people are hard working, honest people who make a living to support a family of 8 and who stand by their product more than anyone.
You crossed me in a way i’m uncomfortable. I hope you take into consideration the fact that posting a comment like this does more than send the message out that milk can cause osteoporosis - you’ve made some people defensive.
Wow. I never knew that milk was so controverisial. Even though I think making a website devoted to “why milk sucks” is a complete waste of time, I will have to agree with Reality on the fact that milk is all it’s cracked up to be. Reality said this line
“They are contaminated with cow’s blood and pus and are frequently contaminated with pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics”
While working on a dairy farm for over a year, I discovered that to be very true. I learned to be disgusted by the whole process.
I’ll just stick with Mountain Dew…..
I meant no disrespect to the actual family that Aaron was visiting. I’m sure they run a respectable milk farm.
However i would be interested in hearing what they do with all the waste that is produced from their cows.
And what they do with the male calves that are born.
As well as how fast they “USE” up their female cows.
that’s a great tome, Reality. Where’d you cut and paste it from?
I think it’s irresponsible to point your attacks at the family aaron speaks of. I think the chaps and chapettes at milksucks.com would probably have very little objection to the way that a small family dairy farm is run - and I don’t think that I have to see the actual farm to think that way.
I get the feeling that the organization you’re championing this month is probably targeting big dairy farms - the kinds that supply Country Fresh, Dannon, and other monstrous chains - because those are the only kinds that would need the number of animals that could supply enough waste to pollute Chesapeake Bay. Family farms are probably able to mill the waste products from their (relatively small number of) cows right back into their own soil to help fertilize crops. And I hardly think that their animals are “used” as quickly as a corporate dairy farm. If they are, perhaps they eat them.
I bet if you asked them, instead of waving around an accusatory finger and brandishing a copycat manifesto, they’d tell you.
I started a discussion.. no one needs to take it so personal. I’m an advocate of www.milksucks.com and if you had read the website you would know that i cut it from their front page.
Welcome to the internet!
I reproduced lines of thought that i found interesting and agree with, in response to conversation that involved the common subject.
..direct quote from the topic …”2,900 cows that are milked 2 times a day. De Jager owes 15,000 acres of land and is one of the biggest dairy farmers in the state of California (and I think the country).”
Sorry, i responded with the first thing i thought of.
www.milksucks.com
….. at the least i gave you a reason to think of your thoughts on the issue.
And if there’s a problem with that , why in the world would someone put a Comment link after they’ve displayed what they thought.
Haha - I’m sorry but I can’t help but laugh at alot of this. Reality - I am sorry to say I have no respect for what you say. Whether it be true or not - what kind of person states strong facts but doesn’t offer there name. I’m glad you have added everything that you have added. I do feel if one is strong about an area of life they shouldn’t be ashamed to offer their name to go along with all they talk and (true or not) statements. You may post again with your name.
I’ve added comments to my posts because of this very purpose - for people to have a place to speak up on various things or add their thoughts.
If you are honestly interested in how everything works on a farm I would suggest you visit various farms over the country and talk with various farmers about these issues.
I can give you names and numbers/e-mail addresses of many farmers who could answer many of your questions. I will say that the cow waste is put into a giant football size hole and then pumped into tanks for spreading it over their crops.
Baby cows (at least at the 3 farms I’ve seen) have been treated incredibly well. They receive cow milk in the morning and later in the day they are fed with cow milk and half powdered milk that hold alot of vitamins that help the cow grow. (ingredients in which I can direct you to).
I know this isn’t much information and if you truly are passionate about the cows and milk I can direct you to people who are actually dealing with them. As I stated earlier.
If you have never been to a cow farm (more than just a small Michigan farm) then I am sad for you. AS you stated this is THE INTERNET. With that any group of people can put together any piece of information and make it look true or professional. I am not discrediting www.milksucks.com - but asking you to alittle more research before you try to make yourself sound knowledgeable on a subject.
There actually are some very large dairy farms in Michigan, outside of the Holland area. I am sure they love visitors!
Ah, debate. Thanks, theparagon.org and everybody involved here. This is lots of fun.
Anyway, I think where my problem lies with Reality’s arguments is not so much in the ideas behind them (everybody wants to live in a fair, happy, safe, clean world, right?), but the way that he/she presented them.
First off, they weren’t very forthright with who the words belonged to - at first, I thought this was straight from his/her keyboard and into theparagon.org. I don’t think you’re doing much to promote change in anybody if all you do is hide behind somebody else’s neatly-phrased dogma. I like responding much more to people and their own thoughts. If the words aren’t your own, what are you risking? What are you saying? That you have no voice, so you’ll let somebody else do your talking? Reality wants us to question our complacency about our consumerism, and that’s good, but their means is not. They’re just consuming somebody else’s product. I don’t get the feeling you’ve done too much thinking about it when all you cite is a single source.
If you think about it, you haven’t really gotten any of us to think about our thoughts on the topic. milksucks.com may have. You’ve gotten us to think about your recitation of their neat diatribe.
Reality has followed up with a lot, but it’s all been defense and tidying up, trying to say they didn’t mean to offend anybody. For the topic at hand, they just keep on citing this milksucks site. I wonder, without quoting somebody else, why it is exactly that Reality thinks this way. Is it to really get people to think, or is it just playing intellectual King of the Hill? A lot of saying “I’m right because I have the statistics to prove it RIGHT HERE,” when maybe those stats don’t apply to everybody.
Holler back.
I wonder if you’ve even thought about the other factors that go into this … you asked such questions as
“…i would be interested in hearing what they do with all the waste that is produced from their cows.
And what they do with the male calves that are born.
As well as how fast they “USE” up their female cows”
First of all - there is a national shortage of cattle - therefore when calves are born - regardless of their sex, they’re needed. for a number of things - and on this particualer dairy farm they’re needed for everything.
They don’t “USE” their female cows - also called HEFFERS, did you know that?
If you’re going at this as having cows to produce milk and work as it’s inhumane you’re wrong, simply put. If it’s wroing to make them work - then of course it’s wrong to make us work right - but we need the $$ to make the payments, buy the food - BUY THE MILK to make the food and to keep the dairy farms going.
And as far as what they do with the waste from the cows - they wash it out frequently. Some farms even have a consistent flow of water to carry the waste away going.
You have no backbone to stand on in this,REALITY. other than the site you’re reading. and that has nothing to do with any of the arguments you’ve posed against me and anyother dairy farmer.
I’m ashamed for you.
There’s a national shortage of cattle. Bwahaha.
That’s the funniest thing i’ve heard yet.
Who cares? The people that run the pollution - oops i mean dairy farms.
I find it amusing that Derek needs to attack the presentation of my ideas.
Fact is fact. If you want to bitch about me using another organization’s manifesto (which was created for this exact purpose .. to be propagated to as many as possible.. to stir understanding into the reality of the dairy industry.) than you have missed the point.
That giant football field sized waste hole your talking about .. leaks into the water table. The same principle is used for human waste except it’s held in a cement / metal holding tank in your back yard called a “Septic Tank” which prevents your **** from contaminating the water table.
All those ‘dairy farms’ in and around midwest mi. Are commanly reffered to as ‘factory farms’ and are the leading cause of pollution in the ‘black river’ which runs right through our own backyard and into lake mi. Each year they produce 30,000 tons of chemical / bio / animal waste that goes untreated and spills into our waterways. ( as stated by the ‘sierra club’ a leading environmental protection organization) However you can discount that fact since i could not think of it on my own.
And as far as the 3 farms that you have been to. DO you actually think they are going to show you the crated male calves that are kept from vital nurtients / vitamins purposely to stunt growth as to provide your tasty , tender ‘veal’ meat product?
Do you also think that the billion dollar milk industry is going to come out and tell the public that their product is bad for you?
Oh have you heard the latest news?
The billion dollar petro industy doesn’t run the world
after all!!
Just curious, Dan, since you’re the only one voicing for your side of the debate: are you vegetarian? vegan? Do you eat any meat? Buy any leather products? Eat cheese? Jello? Use shampoo? Candles? Eat yogurt? Ice cream? Do you check your labels closely to make sure that you’re not consuming any of the products that are associated with the dairy/beef/cow-related industry?
Do you act as strongly as you pamphleteer? I hope so.
If i did eat meat would what i say be any less true?
Because a heroin addict shoots up , does that negate the fact that heroin is destructive?
Thanks for your curiousity and tell you the truth i have been a vegetarian for a year now. While it’s next to impossible to abstain from any dairy/beef product in todays current society, i manage fairly well to stay away from most.
But if you want my view on the matter eating beef / dairy isn’t so bad in itself. It’s that the industry is allowed to operate with loose restrictions that pose the problem.
With greater conciousness towards the truth of the dairy/beef industry more safeguards could be implemented that would allow many of the problems to be resolved.
Thanks for the discussion
I came to this site trying to find something for a report and all you people talk about is that milk sucks well i think u are so wrong
Reality Says:
Milk is horrible for you.
Corporate-owned factories where cows are warehoused in huge sheds and treated like milk machines have replaced most small family farms. With genetic manipulation and intensive production technologies, it is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of milk a dayó 10 times more than they would produce in nature. To keep milk production as high as possible, farmers artificially inseminate cows every year. Growth hormones and unnatural milking schedules cause dairy cows’ udders to become painful and so heavy that they sometimes drag on the ground, resulting in frequent infections and overuse of antibiotics. Cows — like all mammals — make milk to feed their own babies — not humans.
Male calves, the “byproducts” of the dairy industry, endure 14 to17 weeks of torment in veal crates so small that they can’t even turn around. Female calves often replace their old, worn-out mothers, or are slaughtered soon after birth for the rennet in their stomachs (an ingredient of most commercial cheeses). They are often kept in tiny crates or tethered in stalls for the first few months of their lives, only to grow up to become “milk machines” like their mothers.
Cow’s milk is an inefficient food source. Cows, like humans, expend the majority of their food intake simply leading their lives. It takes a great deal of grain and other foodstuffs cycled through cows to produce a small amount of milk. And not only is milk a waste of energy and water, the production of milk is also a disastrous source of water pollution. A dairy cow produces 120 pounds of waste every day — equal to that of two dozen people, but with no toilets, sewers, or treatment plants.
In Lancaster County, Pa., manure from dairy cows is destroying the Chesapeake Bay, and in California, which produces one-fifth of the country’s total supply of milk, the manure from dairy farms has poisoned vast expanses of underground water, rivers, and streams. In the Central Valley of California, the cows produce as much excrement as a city of 21 million people, and even a smallish farm of 200 cows will produce as much nitrogen as in the sewage from a community of 5,000 to 10,000 people, according to a U.S. Senate report on animal waste.
Dairy products are a health hazard. They contain no fiber or complex carbohydrates and are laden with saturated fat and cholesterol. They are contaminated with cow’s blood and pus and are frequently contaminated with pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics. Dairy products are linked to allergies, constipation, obesity, heart disease, cancer, and other diseases.
The late Dr. Benjamin Spock, America’s leading authority on child care, spoke out against feeding cow’s milk to children, saying it can cause anemia, allergies, and insulin-dependent diabetes and in the long term, will set kids up for obesity and heart disease, America’s number one cause of death.
And dairy products may actually cause osteoporosis, not prevent it, since their high-protein content leaches calcium from the body. Population studies, backed up by a groundbreaking Harvard study of more than 75,000 nurses, suggest that drinking milk can actually cause osteoporosis
want to know more? www.milksucks.com